Golf World

Exclusive: Greg Norman on Tiger, courses, the game

Tour News

14 January 2011 13:23

The Great White is still swimming fast, even at the age of 55, expanding his already massive business empire and trying to get his game back in shape after surgery just over a year ago. That’s the thing about sharks, they have to keep moving. Chris Evert (his second wife) has gone; and he has just got engaged to Kirsten Kutner, who is 14 years his junior. There is a definite aura about him when he swims into a room, as we discovered when we sat down for this exclusive interview...

Is the game healthy at the moment? No. The barometer is America, and things are tough there at the moment, whether you’re talking about the golf course design business, real estate, golf clothing, clubs and balls, or whatever. The middle guy has been completely eliminated and now the industry is run by the big guys, the Callaways, the Nikes, the TaylorMades. They’ve squeezed everyone else.

Golf is pretty much going through the same process in America which tennis went through some years ago. Did you know more people are now taking up tennis in the United States than golf? Is that because of time? Or cost? Probably a bit of both.

Golf put itself in a bit of a box, and now the PGA Tour has a hard sell on its hands because corporations are trying to trim their budgets. When you’re a player, it’s easy not to see what’s happening, because every week you’re playing for a million dollars in your courtesy car, with free dry cleaning and a hotel discount.

It’s tough to see the impact of the global recession. But, television deals will be different from now on, and it’s going to be tougher ahead.

There was a piece in the Wall Street Journal recently where Tim Finchem, the PGA Tour Commissioner, is quoted as saying that in four years time the PGA Tour will be in Asia and South America. How do you see the next 10 years unfolding in professional golf? I think the Commissioner had to say that, and has to do that. You just have to look at the success of the European Tour. They’re the ones who are the true global Tour. They’ve gone to South Africa and Australia and Asia and all over the place. And because of what’s happening with the economy in America, Finchem has recognised that he needs to look abroad. That’s why he held a tournament in Malaysia this year. And that’s why he was behind the consortium which got golf into the Olympics.

After the 2016 Olympics in Brazil, the PGA Tour will become involved in the development of the game in South America. That’s a smart and logical decision.

He has to do this because the European Tour have pretty much got the rest of the world wrapped up, but South America is just about virgin territory. We see it in our design business, in our clothing business and our wine business. The GDP is very healthy in a lot of countries down there. Twenty years ago, no one cared less what was happening in Brazil and Argentina. Now, that has changed. We get calls asking us to build courses in Columbia.

You’ve had flirtations with being the top man at the PGA Tour. Is that all water under the bridge now, or do you still have ambitions in that field? That was never me saying I wanted to be the Commissioner. That was more requests from players at the time... You had a vision for how world golf should work? I had a vision. I still think there should be more transparency. Even when I was playing I only knew about 10% of what was going on, and that’s not how I like to be. The type of mind I’ve got needs to know answers to questions. Would I have an interest now? No, I wouldn’t.

Steve Elkington put you forward for a place on the Board of Directors of the PGA Tour because of all your experience in business. Is it a regret that you were never invited on that? The biggest regret was the criteria put on me not to be on it.

Explain? Well, if you’re an active player you can’t be on the Independent Board of Directors. I thought that was wrong, and
I still do.

But, if someone came to you now and asked you to be a ‘consultant’ of sorts to the PGA Tour, is that something you’d be interested in? I don’t know. I’d probably sit back and think about it. Whether I’d say yes or no, I really couldn’t answer that right now.

Have we seen the end of the Tiger/Phil/Vijay era? Do you see a new McIlroy/Fowler era dawning? If you look at the history of the game, there’s always a 10-15 year cycle. There was when I played, when Nicklaus played, and you can go back as far as Hogan and Snead. That change of cycles is happening right now. Tiger has gone through his 10-15 year cycle; or at least he’s getting towards the end of it.

As Tiger and Phil get older, there will be this natural transition. In the halcyon days of Tiger’s career, when he was winning 10 times a season, the guys alongside him, who were great players, were getting drilled every time. There was no one really ready or able to step up to the plate and take him on. The Rory McIlroys of this world watched Tiger then on TV, but they didn’t really play against him...

So, no scar tissue? Exactly right. Look at Ernie Els. He has a lot of scar tissue because every time he was up there in a tournament, guess who beat him? Tiger Woods. And when Tiger was not around at the beginning of 2010, Ernie goes out and wins two tournaments. Why? Because the elephant was off his back. So, yes, I think the Tiger era is coming to a quiet close. Has it happened yet? No. Will it happen in 2011? Probably; towards the end of the year. And I think it’s great for the game. I think what’s happened in this year’s Majors has been great for the game; the way the Europeans and others have stepped up to the plate. And that’s happening not just in the men’s game, but the women’s as well. The domination of America in the game is coming to an end.

Will any player ever dominate again, in the way Tiger did? Maybe. But, the might of America will never be quite the same. The PGA Tour is going to go to Asia and Brazil. What does that tell you? There is bound to be a natural dilution of the game in the States. You are seeing a shift in the balance of power.

Wind the clock forward 20 years and what does the game look like then? If China does what they say they are going to do, they will have 30 million golfers by 2025. If that happens, the East will take over the West, for sure. And that’s without even thinking about things like Indian golf, where Jeev Milkha Singh has been carrying the flag almost single-handedly. Indian golf is about to explode. And Korean golf already has exploded. I played with Seung-yul Noh, a 19-year-old Korean in the European Masters in Switzerland earlier this year. He is a phenomenal player! There is a huge pool of talent
out there.

You mentioned the Ladies Tour. Can there ever be too many players from one country dominating a Tour? I’m thinking of the Koreans on the LPGA? I see it as a bit like what happened in Sweden in the 1980s and 1990s when Sven Tumba introduced golf there. One minute there were no golfers from Sweden and the next there were 30 or 40. I think it’s fantastic what’s happening in Korea, and that’s quite a small country. Imagine what happens when 1.3 billion people get behind the game. Look out!

Is Tiger going to beat Jack’s 18 Majors? Time will tell. I think it’s a very different road for him now. He’s got more distractions and people aren’t as intimidated as they were. And he’s got to work out swing issues and concentration issues. So, the road is not as easy as it was a couple of years ago.

How well do you know him? Very little. I’ve played with him a couple of times.

Has some of what he’s done – winning Majors by 12 and 15 shots – surprised you? No. I thought Tiger in 2000 was technically the best swinger of a golf club I had ever seen in my life. I thought Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Steve Elkington, Tom Purtzer in his hey-day, all had swings to die for. But, Tiger put it all together. He could putt, he could chip, he could drive; his concentration levels were extraordinary, his intimidation was immense, and this all meant that he had more clubs in his bag than anyone else has ever had in the game of golf. He also loved rubbing salt in the wounds. The more salt he rubbed in the more intimidating he became. He built himself up to this position where he thought he was way above everyone else, justifiably so. And the media went along with it, too.

You’ve seen a lot of amateurs try to play this game. What’s the biggest mistake they make? They often struggle with rotation of the body and it’s such a crucial element of the golf swing. So much, including tempo and rhythm, depends on rotation, especially on the downswing.

A golf swing is a bit like chopping wood. You need to have a good strong hip flex. The only way you can get extra power is by increasing the rotation on your downswing.

I also think amateurs fiddle around, changing the ball position too much. If you keep the ball position the same with every club, you begin to understand the golf swing so much better. Every club in your bag is designed to do a different job, depending on the loft.

Another huge difference between pros and amateurs is that pros very seldom hit a shot with 100 per cent of effort. We are always trying to play within ourselves; at 75 or 85 per cent. Very seldom did I hit a shot 100 per cent, full out, because the room for error is magnified by your swing speed. If I reckon I can hit a 6-iron 175 yards that doesn’t mean I will try to do that. You can always scale back. Amateurs hardly ever play within their boundaries.

Throughout your career, what was your most important swing thought? I used
to think ‘keep your rhythm’ more than anything else. The first 18 inches of every swing (on the backswing) dictates the rhythm of the shot. I’m a great believer in the one-piece takeaway. The problem is pressure can start playing havoc with rhythm, because your grip tends to tighten under pressure, and your forearms can do the same.

Turning to your business empire, is it true to say that it is still based on growing wine and grass, and designing clothes and golf courses? I’ve licensed out my grass now. Wine is still very big. We’ve kind of lost a little bit of traction to be honest with you, because of the economy. The product is great. The big thing for us is the Argentinian Malbec which we’re launching any moment. This will give us a new push. And we’re also starting to sell back in Australia. None of my wines have ever been on sale in Australia until now. And, in the United States, I think about 60% of all wines from Australia, which are sold there, are now mine.

You don’t actually have your own vineyard. Why? Well, I partner the behemoth, Beringer, and they own it all. We go into the Beringer portfolio of vineyards where the best Chardonnay grape is right now. So, we’ve shipped from Napa to Santa Barbara. So by having that flexibility, we’re always producing the best grape.

So, no temptation? I’ve actually thought about it. Fosters and I have talked about it for a long time. But it’s just... If you’re going to do it, I actually have to be there. That’s me either moving to Australia, or to Santa Barbara (which I wouldn’t mind because Santa Barbara is an absolute magnificent spot) or to Napa Valley. We just haven’t made that move.

Do you know how many bottles have been drunk of Greg Norman wine? We’ve done 3.3 million this year. And the business has been going 12 years. We’ve been as high as 3.6 million and now we’re 3.3.

Do you drink any other wine yourself? Oh yes. I’m a big student. I’m not a connoisseur of wine or a vintner; but I’m a keen student.

Let’s turn to your course design business. How many courses have you built? We have now opened 72. Right now, despite the tough economic times, we have 42 under contract, but a lot of those have been put on hold, of course. So, that’s a fantastic business.

The industry is a tough industry now, however. People are a lot more sophisticated. I’m actually going to blame my industry a little bit, the golf course design industry, for what they did in the 1980s. The corporate dollar in golf and in real estate development in the States went through the roof 25 years ago. They were building about 400 golf courses a year in the States, but they were building these golf courses with pretty much an unlimited budget, because there was so much money around. And that residue has really fallen down on everybody here today, a quarter of a century later.

What’s happening is there are ongoing costs of maintaining these massive courses that were built. Golf courses that could have been built for eight million dollars were in fact built for 16 million. On top of that they built these giant clubhouses, 100 square feet, probably only about 20% of which is used.

The industry created this mess? Exactly. What we’re finding now is we need to learn from what happened in the States. I gave a speech recently in Hainan Island, in China, and that’s the message I tried to get over. The Chinese Government must learn by what happened in the United States because if you’re going to grow the game in China to the numbers you’re talking about – more golfers in China in the next 15 years than they have currently in the United States – make sure you have sustainability in the game. That sustainability comes from building from the grass roots up. Don’t go out there and build these monstrosities, that cost a fortune to maintain. As mentioned, developers are more sophisticated now.

They want to build courses which are more environmentally sound, where you don’t have to have 30 green staff, but instead can trim that down to 18 or 20. That’s a huge reduction in wages. So, you’re getting more out of golf, by putting less into it. It’s an interesting message. It’s hard to get it across. We do it on a case by case basis. And it works. It really is starting to get a bit of traction.

Tough question, but which of your 72 courses are you most proud of? I really love Doonbeg. Doonbeg was an extremely sensitive environmental site. A lot of people wanted to design golf courses there. We worked incredibly closely with the environmentalists, who were very tough on us. I visited the site something like 23 times because of the sensitivity issues. And on every one of my site visits I invited the environmentalist, Lady Evelyn, out to walk around with me. We were there in all weathers. So, that was a shining moment in collaborative effort and creating something together. And now, look at the great reputation that place has got in a very short time period.

In general terms, what makes a great golf course? Is it possible to compare a Sunningdale with a St George’s? What are your thoughts on ranking courses? I’ll be brutally honest with you, I’m not a big fan of rankings. Every course has its own individual characteristic. It’s very hard to compare Sunningdale with the Old Course at St Andrews. How much does history have to do with it for instance?

Okay, but what about you? What are the factors which come to make a great course in your mind? When I walk onto the first tee of any course, I know if the course is going to be visibly suited to my eye. You’ve got to be able to see where you’re going, and you’ve got to be able to tell it’s not going to be a monotone, redundant golf course. I can tell a golf course which is going to be artificial, in other words where it doesn’t work with the natural landscape and environment.

For me, a lot of it has to do with the playability of a golf course; playability across the board. Conditioning is obviously also a vital point, but I don’t think that should be a high criteria because quite honestly if you’ve got the money, you can make any golf course look in great condition.

Bunker strategy, whether or not you can see the hazards, the camber of the holes, what gradient the greens are, multiple pin positions, multiple tee positions; these are all important.

One thing I get very frustrated about when I go and play just a ‘fun’ type of round is that everyone plays off the markers. I’d love to get rid of all tee markers. You could have a sign as you walked up – “this is 528 yards, a par 5”, but then you tee off wherever you want to tee off.

I played at Gleneagles this week on the PGA course with three Koreans, and they all wanted to play off the tips. And it’s blowing 30 miles per hour. And the problem if you do that, is you have to call the group behind through, because you’re holding up play. That’s the type of mentality which gets me very frustrated.

Ignoring courses you’ve built, what’s your favourite course in the world? I love St Andrews. The variety of the test and the strategy are extraordinary. From a player’s perspective, I could never ever get bored of playing St Andrews. I can remember every hole, every shot; and that to me is the sign of a great design.

Did you always love it? It took Bobby Jones several years before he said he started to love the Old Course? Everybody says the same thing. A good player when he first goes there says ‘What’s this crap?’ ‘I can hit it anywhere left’ and so on. But when you start understanding where the pins go, that’s when it starts to get interesting, and that’s when you start to understand the golf course. It’s like Royal Melbourne. And Alister Mackenzie is like that. You’ve got to play his golf courses backwards in your mind, from the pin positions back to the tee.

I really like Royal Dornoch. I don’t like some of the new holes up high, but the general feel of Royal Dornoch is just magical to me. I’ve played it a lot, because I’m a member of Skibo Castle. And you’re not going to believe this, but I love Machrihanish; just love it. For pure links, pulling your little trolley along and going out there and saying to yourself “where am I going to hit this?” You’ve got to have a caddie with you to tell you where you’re going. I love that place.

Is there a ‘mantra’ for Greg Norman design? Do you have your own distinct philosophy? I don’t try and be that “cookie cutter”. I really try to deliver a different golf course experience at every project I work on. If I have a 36-hole project to do, I like to think that my two golf courses are so different that a golfer will play one on a Monday and the other on a Tuesday and say “wow, did Greg Norman really design both these?”

I don’t really believe in signature holes either. I think every hole should be a signature hole.

Tell us about your clothing business? I’m more passionate about this than people know or understand. When your name is on the door, it’s pretty difficult to do anything else but keep your fingers in the pie. I’ve had great partners along the way. I own the logo, so right now it’s more of a licensing deal.

To me, the establishment of our credibility in the United States has been very satisfying. We’ve really penetrated the Green Grass On-Line Pro Shops market and now we’re looking at going into Macey’s.

We’re also on the cutting edge of technology in fabrics. We’ve just introduced a new fabric which the military has been using for some time. It repels the moisture but the air gets through it. Our focus is now on places like China, Argentina, Brazil, India and so on.

Talk us through your relationship with Johnnie Walker, which you’ve had for many years? I remember playing in the very first exhibition match which was ever contested in China, which Johnnie Walker were behind. We got a 737 Dragon Air out of Hong Kong with Mr Lu in 1992. And the explosion of golf in China is partly to do with that, and for that Johnnie Walker should be congratulated.

I think of my relationship with them not so much as an endorsement as an ambassadorial relationship. I am promoting the game of golf with this company which has been involved with the game for a very long time.

I’m basically signed up to do a campaign in China and Korea. The Johnnie Walker Blue Label Trophy is the largest amateur event in the game. Seven thousand golfers in China entered this event.

And I’ve just launched the Johnnie Walker Blue Label Greg Norman Collection, which is three pieces of luxury luggage, which compliment the Blue Label whisky.

At the Birkdale Open a couple of years ago, you almost pulled off the story of the century? How much did that hurt? I wouldn’t say it ‘hurt’. It was an interesting dynamic going into the week, because I almost withdrew before the golf tournament. I remember telling Chrissie [Evert – his second wife] I was going to withdraw. I told her I was playing like crap, that the weather was going to be horrible all week and that I didn’t want to take up space on the golf course just for the sake of it. So, when I got there my expectations were just zero. Then, for some reason, my catalyst for the week was my practice round on Tuesday. I just loved the way the R&A set up the golf course, the rough, the shape of the fairways, the pin positions. I went into Peter Dawson’s office after that practice round and said to him: “Peter, this is the best set-up I have ever seen at an Open.”

So, from there I started thinking I was going to enjoy the week. As Sunday came, I still truly believed I had a chance of winning the golf tournament as I was putting on the 16th. It was a great feeling.

Looking back on the week, I got a huge sense of satisfaction that I could put myself into a position to win, after such a long time out of the game. You ask yourself how can that sort of thing come about. And you end up realising that one’s love of the game, and the skills which are so deeply entrenched in you, are still around.

After 72 holes, I walked off the golf course not deflated, but elated. And that was because I went way beyond my expectations that week.

Would I have loved to have won it? Of course. But you look at the second shot Padraig hit on the 71st hole, and I’ve thought about this a lot, that is probably one of the two or three best shots I’ve seen hit in my life.

You were playing with him of course… I was and when I saw him pull out that club, with the wind and on a downhill lie I was amazed. Ian Poulter was in, and we were one or two back. I glanced over at him and though you don’t usually pay attention to what other players are doing I remember being surprised he was going for it. That changed my mind-set, because I didn’t have a great lie in the semi-rough. So after he did what he did, I had to then create something. He really dictated the terms by hitting such a magnificent shot.

I know you say you’re not ‘hurt’, but you were so tantalisingly close, you must think about it a bit? Have you watched the footage? No I haven’t.

It would have been an extraordinary story? Yeah, it would have been. And Tom [Watson] at Turnberry a year later was similar. Those are great lessons for a Rory McIlroy or for Matteo [Manassero] to look at. They can see those Opens and say “Jeez, these guys are about 60, and I am 20; I’ve got about 40 years of Majors where I might have a chance of winning.” That’s about 160 Major Championships!

You have said you hardly ever watch golf on television; did you watch Tom [Watson] at Turnberry? Absolutely, I did. I watched the last six or eight holes and when I turned on, I half-expected Tom to be two or three back; not to be right there! I went “Holy smokes! He’s got a chance of winning this!” For the first time in my life I was nervous for someone I was watching on TV. I was pulling for him. I sent a text to him the moment it was over; and I was gutted for him; probably more gutted than he was.

Was he right to putt from the back of the 18th green in regulation? Well, under the circumstances, you’ve got to understand the nerve-factor. Our nerve endings are very different in our 50s than they were in our 20s. You really do feel it. When you grip that club, it’s not like touching silk anymore. You really can feel it shaking in your hands. It’s a reality check, because it’s a testament to time and what it does to your system.

The bottom line is he knew that by putting he would at least have the chance of a putt to win the Open. If he had chipped he might have left it in the fringe. Tom understood the situation probably better than anyone else.

How much do you play now? I had surgery in September 2009 and didn’t play for 11 months after that. I tried to get ready for the Open at St Andrews this year, and hit a few balls but I knew it was too early. I started practising in August and played in the European Masters in September, but I’m still carrying a lot
of rust around.

What I’m really looking forward to is playing in the Australian Open in December, and then my tournament just afterwards. And then, I’ll see how that goes. I know which parts of my game I need to work on, but it’s not as easy working on those as it used to be. I was telling Kirsten the other night that you forget how much energy and sacrifice you put into this game. Now, I try to practise and work for a couple of hours a day, and I’m drained.

How does Greg Norman want to be remembered? Just as a great lover of the game of golf. As someone who wanted to continue the development of the game of golf on a global level.

At the end of the day, of course people will look back at the tournaments and championships you’ve won. But, I think they also look at what you’ve given back to the game. I sacrificed myself to the game on a global basis, and I’m still doing that. If I can have one little piece of the growth and development of the game in China, then I’m going to feel really satisfied. Just the same way as I was one of the first top players to go to Dubai. Those were the days when the tallest building in Dubai was the Hard Rock Café! And look at that place now.

Is there any part of Greg Norman which is slowing down? Are you ever going to take the spikes off and go and live on some small island and relax? That island is probably going to be Australia! There’s no question that there has got to come a time when you just want to go and play golf for fun; rather than work at it in order to perform. That time will come. But, it hasn’t come yet...